[00:00:04.800] - Tony Roig
Welcome to Pickleball Therapy, the podcast dedicated to your pickleball improvement. I hope you're doing well. This is a special episode of a podcast. It's double special. Special episode because it's special, but also extra special because I get to chat with my good friend, Scott Golden. Scott, how are you doing today?

[00:00:18.920] - Scott Golden
I'm doing great. Anytime I can get on a podcast with Tony, it's a good day.

[00:00:23.960] - Tony Roig
I would agree with that. I'll second that one, Scott. It's a good day when you get to chat with me. So as Scott and I had known each other Probably about close to 10 years now. We were just chatting a little bit before we started recording and just going over some memory lane stuff. So Scott, why don't you share with everybody a little bit of your background in pickleball? And then we're going to dive right into this awesome book that you and your co-author have put out, and let's dive into it.

[00:00:50.880] - Scott Golden
Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's important for people to just get a little bit of background on the person you're talking to. So my name is Scott Golden. I started playing pickleball about 10 years ago, coming up on 10. And you were one of the first people that I actually played back in the day. We were talking about Hiawasi, Georgia. I had such fond memories of those tournaments back then because the sport of pickleball back then, obviously, like you and I both know, was not what it is today. Things have changed drastically, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But back then, we really went to play pickleball tournaments for the community to see people that we needed to catch up with and wanted to see. Plus the competition back then, we did it for a lot of pride, and it wasn't as much about money and politics and things like that. But my journey has been a very interesting journey. I think just like you, we've evolved in the sport and we've found where we fit. And for me, I started at 32 years old. I'm now 41 years old. And I feel like I knew pretty early on.

[00:01:53.560] - Scott Golden
I'll tell you when I knew, I went to a tournament in Indiana, and I was playing in a 5. 0 men's in a singles bracket. There was five of us. Four of those five were former college tennis players, and they kicked my ass. I mean, these guys beat me 15-3, 15-5. I think I won one game, 16-14. I barely squiged it out. And I got lucky on a couple of netcords and stuff. But I realized then I need to transition into some other things. And so through my processing of the sport and just seeing where the future was, I eventually transitioned into to full-time coaching. And that has led me into some awesome opportunities. And so I live in South Florida now, where I always laugh at people. I moved to Florida from Alabama because that's where all the rich people are and can afford lessons. So it wasn't that I necessarily love Florida. It's just I moved to where the hotbeds were for a pickleball.

[00:02:52.700] - Tony Roig
Florida is definitely one of three or four, right? Arizona, Texas, maybe, a couple of others. But that's awesome, Scott. It's been my pleasure to know Scott for a number of years. We've met in different tournaments and just as colleagues. And so what was interesting is, if you listen to the podcast, you know that we just came out with Pickleball Therapy, the book. Hub, which is our effort to add some positive information out there about the mental aspects of pickleball, a different way of thinking about it. I want to say it was probably 10 days or two weeks ago, Scott reaches out to me and sends me a message and goes, Hey, can we talk on the podcast about a book that I put out with Jeff Morris, right?

[00:03:37.640] - Scott Golden
That's correct.

[00:03:38.480] - Tony Roig
Jeff Morris, called The Tau of Pickleball. And I was like, Okay, let me take a look at the book and see what it's about and see if it makes sense for it to be on the podcast. And it definitely does. I think it's a really nice, really good book. Really interesting angles from Eastern philosophy, bringing those concepts into pickleball. And so, Scott, why don't you tell us a little bit about the journey on the book and how you and Jeff, what you guys are trying to do with the book and things like that. And then we can talk a little bit about what's inside the book. And I am going to tell you a spoiler. I'm going to recommend that if you're listening to this podcast, I strongly recommend that you read the Pickleball Therapy, the book. I think it's really helpful to you. But it doesn't pretend to be the only book on the subjects and the only thing you should read, because some concepts in that book might resonate with you. I can tell you some concepts in the towel of Pickleball resonated with me, not just as a coach, but also just as a human and as a player.

[00:04:31.760] - Tony Roig
Some of those concepts are helpful. So I'm going to recommend... That's a spoiler. I'm going to recommend that you check out the towel of Pickleball as well. But Scott, tell us a little bit about the book process a little bit, and then we can dive into some of the concepts in the book.

[00:04:42.040] - Scott Golden
I'd love to. But, Tony, before I get into that, I do want to also just say thank you to you because I believe there's two ways of looking at life. One is a very narrow-minded perspective where you're trying to keep everybody else out. And then there's a word that we use these days that I think is a really, it's a popular word, but it's really something that I've learned to embrace, which is collaboration. And so when you learn to collaborate with people in your influence, you can actually do some really powerful things out in the industries that you're in. And so I just want to say thank you because you looked at it from from a collaborative standpoint, which I do the same thing. When I reached out to you, I didn't realize that you would just come out with that book as well. So to me, I was like, oh, this is an amazing opportunity for both of us to share with the audience what we've been doing behind the scenes. And so for me, this just made perfect sense. You and I go way back, way before we ever wrote books or started podcasts.

[00:05:39.240] - Scott Golden
And so for me, this is a really exciting thing. So the reason that this book exists, the towel pickleball for me in my life is because through the coaching in Florida, I met a guy named Jeff Morris, who came down from Canada. He actually lives full-time in Canada. He comes down for the winter. I gave him one quick lesson. It was actually a clinic, I think. He wasn't even the individual lesson. It was just a part of... He was part of a clinic. He liked my style of coaching, I guess. So at the end of that lesson, about two years ago, he just said, hey, can I get your phone number? I'm going to be coming down next year. Maybe we can link back up. So I gave him my phone number, brushed it off. Never thought I'd actually even talk to Jeff again, probably, is what I'm imagining I thought. And then fast forward, about a year and a half ago, he reached out and he said, Hey, I am a a black belt in different styles of mixed martial arts. I believe that there's a lot of correlation between pro players and what they do on the mental side of the game that make them successful.

[00:06:45.540] - Scott Golden
And then he said, Obviously, you aren't a black belt, but you have a very technically sound understanding of high-level pickleball. You've been around the game for 10 years. I think if we married those two things together, we could create something that the beginner beginner to intermediate player could really have some advantages if they read this book over their opponents. And so I said, in my mind, I'm like, This is what I've always wanted to do, but never really had that opportunity. And so for me, teaming up with Jeff was a really great chance for me to do that.

[00:07:21.260] - Tony Roig
Yeah, and that's awesome that you guys, again, the word collaboration, right? You guys, Jeff had a vision. Jeff knew you, knew your strengths, you knew his strengths. You talked about it, you got together, and now you put something out there that adds... It's a positive contribution to the sport that we love, the sport that we're dedicated to, right? Both you and I, and Jeff, obviously, in the aspect of writing the book. But it's awesome that you guys wrote the book. What I want to do, if you're good with it, Scott, is I want to wet the appetite a little bit out there. So I'm going to read a section from the book, a small section that you wrote. I don't remember exactly what chapter it's in, but I think it's really applicable to a lot of It's going to resonate with a lot of the listeners because it's a lot of the language that we use, a lot of this concept, just express a little differently. So allow me to read this to you, and then we can chat about it. So this is from Scott. So the way the book is written is, and I think this is fair, Scott.

[00:08:16.860] - Tony Roig
So Jeff basically wrote the chunks, the chapters. And then Scott, what Scott did was, I'm guessing you consulted and talked about it, too. But there's these sections at the end of each chapter where Scott comes in there and says, okay, From my pick-up experience, here are things that are relevant in terms of this overall concept. Is that fair?

[00:08:35.540] - Scott Golden
That's more than fair. All right.

[00:08:37.680] - Tony Roig
This is from one of Scott's sections at the end of one of the chapters. The thing is, the section is entitled Push It says, Go frustration and keep going. It says, It's easy to get discouraged when results don't match your expectations, but setbacks are part of the journey. The key is to stay committed to improvement even when progress feels slow. Growth isn't always linear. Sometimes you'll struggle before making a breakthrough. Warriors aren't the ones who never lose. They're the ones who refuse to quit. Stay patient, trust the process, and keep pushing forward. Now, I'm going to tell you, Scott, that listeners to the podcast are going to be like, All right, Scott, did you hack Tony's computer and pull some stuff from Tony's computer and put in your thing? Obviously, that did not happen, guys. I'm just saying. But the language is... What's interesting is to see how you and Jeff on one side, and then me, CJ, and the better pickleball team on the other side, totally independent processes, totally independent petri dishes of this pickleball experience as coaches, arrive in the same exact place. This idea of trust the process, be patient, take the next step.

[00:09:46.380] - Tony Roig
That's all you can do. Take the next step. The journey idea, this idea that you're on a journey and stay committed to your progress throughout that journey. I think it's just... How do I say this? It's like I think sometimes for players, Scott, it feels like they're not going anywhere. They're stuck and all these things. And you and I, as coaches, we observe them from the outside of the barrel. We're looking at them going like, No, you're making progress. I see it. I see it. I see that you're not the same player you were two months ago. But in their mind, they're like the person who lives in the household, right? And so they don't see the growth of the child or something, right? But then the cousin visits or the uncle visits, and they're like, Oh, my God, kids gotten way bigger. Same thing, right? But they don't see the progress that they're making. Tell me a little bit about that. How do you deal with that with your students, your experience, and how did you come to this conclusion in terms of trusting the process, as opposed to what I think a lot of players look for, which is the results, right?

[00:10:50.800] - Tony Roig
That's what everybody wants, is that I just want to win.

[00:10:53.780] - Scott Golden
Absolutely. So one, I just want to start by saying that I think I can speak on this topic just like you can. Because we've been through it ourselves. We have lived this out, this journey of the last 10 years of our lives, seeing not just the improvements, but the journey being the best part of the success that we've had. For me, if I was only results-driven in my life, I don't think I would be nearly as happy with the last 10 years. I think for me, seeing where I started as a 3. 0 player with no racket sport background, just really falling in love with the sport that I became addicted to. I can't say it any other way. It was just an addiction that was really a positive one in my life 10 years ago, but wanting to be a pro player so badly. And I've had very few big successes on the actual pickleball court. For example, I've never beat Ben Jones, or I've never been on center stage playing for the biggest tournament. But I've had some small wins. I took a game off of J. W. Johnson and Jay Devillier before they were huge names.

[00:12:02.000] - Scott Golden
Before anybody really knew who J. D. Was, he was playing in Utah with J. Deville, and I was able to win one game. We won 12-10. We barely pulled it out. But that was just part of my journey of seeing like, you know what? I can have the results when I put the work in and I'm willing to commit to that journey long term. But with this mindset of how of pickleball and pickleball therapy, the books that we're putting out, for you and I, I believe, because we've done so much coaching over the years, if we just teach somebody how to hit a drop shot in a one hour lesson and they never come back, I can almost guarantee that they won't see the benefits of the long term success. They have to be committed to putting that into action over and over and over again until they're able to say, You know what? Where I started and where I am today are two different places. But if I had not stuck to that and not just really committed to those things, I would not be where I am today. And so for me, this book, Pickleball Therapy, the Tau of Pickleball, is our effort to give people tools on the mental side, not just the physical side, because we can teach people how to hit a drop shot.

[00:13:24.800] - Tony Roig
It's interesting that you mentioned that, Scott, because I think so many players get so So caught up on the third shot drop. And I want to chat about that a little bit more with you because I'm going to put you on the spot because we didn't rehearse any of this. So I'm going to ask you to see what you think about it because I'll tell you where I'm on the third shot drop for the vast majority of players. But let's play on that, because you're absolutely correct. Players get very hyper-focused on wanting a third shot drop. And I don't have anything against the third shot drop. It's fine. It's a good shot. But there's so many other things that would provide I would submit to you, 70 plus % of players out there would get a lot more out of their experience as pick-up players, but also just their performance. They'll play better if they spent that third shot drop time on the mental part, on understanding. And not just... There's part of it... One of it's the mental part, which is how you process information, right? How you... As you know, the Pickleball Therapy book is focused on perspective, which I think is very similar to the towel of pickle, which is like providing a sound or perspective within which to experience the sport.

[00:14:37.040] - Tony Roig
But part of it is also just understanding what the game is about, more than like How to hit an exact shot over to the right, over to the left, and not really understanding how that fits into the bigger picture of the sport. So I don't know if that makes sense with what you're trying to communicate, Scott.

[00:14:56.920] - Scott Golden
No, it definitely does. I can use an example. When I was younger, I used to like to put puzzles together. And when I was putting those puzzles together, sometimes I would be hyper-focused on the little pieces fitting, and I wouldn't step back and look at the bigger picture of what I had accomplished or what I was actually looking at. And sometimes what I would have to do is just pause, take a break from it, and come back, and just stand over the puzzle and see the bigger picture. And then it would unlock things for me. I would start to all of a sudden, you have to follow what I'm saying. It's the flow would re-kick in and it would land three or four in a row. And it's like you pick up that momentum again. I don't think pickleball is any different. We hit walls and we hit plateaus. I think part of that journey and understanding is bigger than just learning how to, like you said, hit that third shot drop. It's how does that shot fit into where that person is at their particular game right now? I don't teach beginners about third shot jobs right now because at the level that they're currently playing at, it's not going to be the piece of that puzzle that fits properly.

[00:16:08.520] - Scott Golden
I'm going to have to force that, and it won't be a good fit for them. So I know you're like this, too. I evaluate each player and where they currently are and how to piece that puzzle together properly for what they currently need, not just forcing a third shot drop on them or whatever.

[00:16:25.620] - Tony Roig
Yeah, it's actually right that you mentioned that, because I think, particularly in the current ecosystem And I started in 2015. I believe Scott started in 2016, so roughly the same time frame. When we started, you had like, Third Shot Sports, you had Primetime Pickleball, you had, I think Ceeja was already on Better Pickleball, Joe Baker videos. There was a few things that you could go, and I'm probably missing somebody, but there was a few, Pickleball 411, my Pickable channel. There's a few things that you could look at on YouTube, but nowhere near, not even like, I don't know, like 2% of you can access today. And so I think that's one of the... I just did a piece that I think you'll appreciate, Scott, trying to... I was trying to understand some comments to a YouTube video, and I don't mind players can comment whatever they want. It doesn't bother me as a person, but I try and figure it out because I want to understand what's happening with them. I want to use that information to try and figure out, okay, what is it that's holding you back? And I'll tell you the story.

[00:17:29.120] - Tony Roig
So what happened was I did a video on errors from rushing. So rushing through shots, rushing through volleys or dinks and things like that. And one of the ones I talked about was what I experience very commonly with students is where they're rushing through their return to serve and they end up missing it because they have no control over the shot because they're running through it. So I'm like, why don't you move to the ball? I think that was a John Wood and the coach that said, you want to be quick but not in a hurry or something. Basically, don't rush. Be quick, but don't rush. Anyway, so that was the whole premise. So a commenter came in, and I thought this comment was perfectly fine. The question was Zane Abertil, for those that don't know, he was a pro player. Zane Abertil just did a video about how you basically run... If you hit a drive, you get set up. But when you're hitting your return serve, you run through which one's correct. Perfectly fine question, right? Perfectly fine question. Because I understand that we live in a universe where both of those premises can be true.

[00:18:29.080] - Tony Roig
They can coexist. They don't negate each other. If you understand who Zane is talking to, who I'm talking to. But then after that, there are these comments that players are like, Do what Zane says. He's the pro, and he's whatever. And I'm just like, Which just doesn't make sense, because then the question I ask is, Okay, what happens when Ben Jones put out his video and says something different than Zane? You're going to follow that because Ben's better than Zane, right? But here's the point of it is, It feels like a lot of pickleball players out there are untethered, and I'll explain that in a second. So basically, they don't have an anchor that anchors their understanding of the game and their process or their approach to their improvement journey. So they end up untethered. And so basically, whatever the algorithm feeds them, they just go, okay, that's what I'll do. Okay, that's what I'll do. And you hit the nail on the head just now, Scott, by talking about how the information they may be receiving, the information they are receiving may be correct. It's like, okay, that is good information if you're a 4.

[00:19:36.040] - Tony Roig
5 player. That is good information if you're a 4. 0 plus player. That is good information, whatever. And the player who's looking at it is a 3. 5 player, or a 3. 2 player, or a 3. 6 player. And so you get players who can hit three dinks in a row, and all of a sudden they're like, Oh, I need to start spending my dinks. And you're like, Why? What's that going to do for you? It's interesting dynamic that you see out there. But I think that idea, Scott, that you just mentioned about understanding where you are and being able to get what's relevant to you is really important. Scott, I'd like to read one more section from your part of the book, if you're good with it, and then we can chat about it.

[00:20:17.580] - Scott Golden
Absolutely. All right.

[00:20:19.220] - Tony Roig
So this comes from Staying in the Present. Now, I'm going to paraphrase a little bit of it because I think it's broader than you gave yourself credit for here, Scott. I think the concept that you talk about is broader. What Scott was talking about, so it's called Staying in the present. He's talking about facing a top player. Nerves can take over and cause you to play below your potential. I've been there myself and things like that. I agree with you. But I want to broaden it because I think the concept that I'm going to explain in a second, that Scott... No, not explain, that I'm going to read in a second that Scott explains, is applies to when sometimes you're playing that really fearsome player in your community, it can also be just when you're in a downward spiral. So you're in a game that you've been up and now they're coming back, or you're down big in game, so you start getting, you're freaking out or whatever. You start getting tense. And so here's what Scott says, the best way to handle it, it being the overload, the nerves, the pressure, right, is to focus on what you can't control.

[00:21:13.940] - Tony Roig
Your shot selection Positioning and execution. If you stay locked in on your game plan, the score will take care of itself. And that's a beautiful way of looking at it, Scott. So that's why I wanted to give you credit for it. But it's a broader concept than just playing a better player, because it applies pretty much any time that you're feeling... Things are not going your way for whatever reason. It's control the controllables, right? And those are things you can decide, like where am I going to aim my shot? How high over the net, to the left, to the right, whatever. I can't control the outcome. I can't control the score, right? I can control the shots in the middle there. So talk to us a little bit about that, Scott. Let's play on that a little bit because I think that's such a powerful concept. I think players get lost in this idea of like... And the way I explain it, Scott, just so you... I don't know if you and I have ever had this conversation, but I always tell players, I'm like, You cannot go out on on the court and win a game.

[00:22:02.180] - Tony Roig
That's just not a thing. And they get it. When they think about it, they're like, Yeah, what am I supposed to do? Yeah, what are you doing? You're just going to go win? Great. Go win the game. Have fun. What you can do is you can say, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that. And then that increases your chances of winning that game. But anyway, let's talk about that a little bit, Scott.

[00:22:18.080] - Scott Golden
So I love just listening to you just talk about that subject because this is something that is very important to me in my own personal playing journey is sometimes we as people, people, as humans, can let nerves or fear take over. And then all of a sudden the focus becomes, how do I just keep my hand from trembling while I'm going to hit the ball? Or, oh my gosh, I don't want to embarrass myself in front of these people or the people on the other side of the net become the bigger issue than you actually playing in the flow. And so this concept of what I'm going to use the word is the flow, is finding this flow state where it really doesn't matter what's going on on the other side. It doesn't matter what your partner is doing, what they're saying or whatever. It's the ability for you to find your inner peace and the flow state is a mindset. It's not a physical. It's so funny because when I've played in like, tournaments where I'm in the gold medal match. Mind you, the way tournaments work, right? If you've never played a pickleball tournament, it's a little different than other sports in the fact that for pro tennis, they play one match a day, and then it might go for 2-3 hours, but then they're done and they can go home to the hotel and relax and recover.

[00:23:33.420] - Scott Golden
But in pickleball, and it's changing at the pro level, but if you go to an amateur tournament, you're pretty much there from Friday morning, if you play singles, all the way through Sunday evening. If you're doing well, you're going to be there till night, nighttime, all three days. So it's very taxing on your body and on your mind. But if you happen to make it all the way to the gold medal match, you find a flow at some point because you don't You don't usually get to the gold medal match until you found that type of flow. And what I found is when I'm in that mental state where I can control only my decisions, my choices, and it really doesn't matter what's going on around me, everything seems to fall in the place naturally. It's like I'm hitting drops, I'm hitting dinks. And when I finish that tournament, I'll be in the car driving home, Tony, I'll be like, I don't even remember hitting 50 drops or 60 dinks. It's almost like a dream state. But I won that gold and I came out victorious. So what I'm getting at is finding that flow and not letting the external factors play a role is very, very powerful.

[00:24:43.720] - Scott Golden
And I think pickleball therapy be your book, the Dauph Pizzabal, my book that we came out with. It's all an effort to try to help people find that flow state in their mind.

[00:24:54.200] - Tony Roig
Yeah, I agree. I think if you come at the sport, The better you prepare, the better you... Ahead of time, right? The better you prepare ahead of time mentally before things get going, because when things are going, it's like, forget about it. It's nuts, right? So you got to prepare ahead of time. The more work you put in, whether it's reading. Again, I'm going to recommend to anybody listening to this, if you're serious about your mental side of your game, get both books, read both books. You're talking about a total investment. I don't know what the total is. Is it 50 bucks, 60? But I don't care. It's a dumb number, right? Your paddle costs five times whatever this is going to cost you. Read the books and you're going to get the benefit of it. Scott, I don't want to give away more about the book because we've given enough little samplers out there. I think that's plenty. I'm going to recommend to folks, you can go to Amazon. You can find Scott and Jeff's book on Amazon right now, TAO of Pickleball. We'll put a link down in the show notes, but you can just go straight to Amazon, get it there.

[00:25:54.100] - Tony Roig
Leave a review for it, folks. It's really important that you leave reviews for the book, please, both on the TAO of Pickleball as well as Pickleball Therapy, the book, if you end up with that book as well, because it helps our books then reach other players. Otherwise, other players don't ever see that just because they didn't listen to this podcast. We're not engaged with them directly. So if you can do that, that would be amazing. And then, Scott, I want to leave him one more thing. If you're down, well, anywhere in the world is fine, but if you're down in South Florida and they want to train with the great Scott Golden, what's the best way for someone to get a hold of you and get some training in with Scott Golden?

[00:26:29.000] - Scott Golden
Awesome. Tony, before I say that, just thank you again for having me on your podcast. I really appreciate your willingness to bring me on. It's so great to catch up with you after all this time. We've been friends for almost 10 years now, and it's just really fun catching up and talking about our new stuff we have going. The best way to get a hold of me on social media is on Instagram. It's simple GoldenboyPickleBall. Facebook, it's either GoldenboyPickleBall or Scott Golden. You can't miss my page. It's all pickleball stuff. You'll know exactly where it is. And then that's pretty much it. I really think that your audience is going to benefit from reading Pickleball Therapy and the Dallas Pickleball. Honestly, I travel a lot, and I love nothing more than putting in the headphones, listening to an audio book. Also, some people like paperback. So if you like the paperback, order that and just spend time, 15 minutes every night just reading one chapter. It'll do a world of wonders for your pickleball game because you and I talk off camera. People spend too much time thinking about the physical side of the game, the technical side.

[00:27:34.280] - Scott Golden
But without the mental side, if you do play tournaments, you will not go very far in your pickleball journey unless you are developing that mental side as much or more than the physical.

[00:27:46.720] - Tony Roig
I'm going to broaden that, Scott, because I'm going to suggest, I don't care if you're playing rec, whatever you're playing, if you get a better mental approach to your pickleball, you're going to play better. We like to say, you'll feel better. I think that's good enough. We could end on feel better and be done. That's great. But you're going to play better, too. And that's really a pragmatic piece to it that I think is overlooked by players in their journey. But Scott, it's always great to see you. We're going to stay in touch more frequently. We already agreed to that. I'll see you when I'm down in South Florida. We're going to get together. And when you're in Tampa, we're going to come across and say hello. Again, we'll put links down below to both books. You can check them out. And As always, consider rating and reviewing the podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast and you think one of your friends can benefit from either the Pickleball Therapy book, the TAO of Pickleball, or preferably both books, share this podcast with them so they can get the benefit of that. Scott, always great to see you, my brother, and congratulations to you and Jeff on the book.

[00:28:50.260] - Tony Roig
It's a great effort and a lot of success with it.

[00:28:53.500] - Scott Golden
Same to you, Tony. Take care, bud.