[00:00:05.330] - Tony Roig
Hello, and welcome to pickleball Therapy, the podcast dedicated to your pickleball improvement with a mind at its center. My name is Tony Roig. I am the host of your podcast. This is a special episode of the podcast. It's an interview that I had the opportunity to speak with Richard Livornese, who's a pro pickleball player on a fantastic journey. My initial intent was to just talk to him about competition and dealing with adversity, the normal things you would think about if you're speaking with a pro player. Come to find out when we started chatting that Richard has been on a deep dive mental journey of his own, which was fantastic. We were able to talk about different tools that he uses, different challenges that he's faced, and how he's overcome them through his own mental journey. I think you're going to find this interview really fascinating. It's a little bit longer of an episode than normal because the content was just there. We could frankly gone two or three times as long. So it's a little bit longer of a podcast. You're going to need about 45 minutes to get through this one. And there may be a little bit of dog sound in the background.

[00:01:13.930] - Tony Roig
I don't know, but Anita and Olivia were hanging out in the hallway doing their thing. So I apologize for that, but I don't think it'll interrupt your enjoyment of the podcast. Without further ado, let's dive straight in and listen to Richard's ideas on the mental part of Picaball. Richard, it's great to have you on the podcast. I appreciate you making the time to join us in Picaball Therapy.

[00:01:33.170] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
Pleasure to be here. Yeah, really excited to talk with you.

[00:01:36.410] - Tony Roig
Awesome. Before we started recording, you and I had a conversation about your journey as a pickleball player and specifically your mental journey Before we dive into that, let's just get to know you a little bit for our audience in terms of when you got into pickleball, who got you into pickleball, things like that. And then we'll dive into, I think for the listeners, it's going to be a really interesting ride about some stoicism ideas and some ideas that you've come across that have helped you along your journey. So tell everybody a little bit about yourself.

[00:02:04.970] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
Yeah. So my name is Richard Livornese. I'm 23. I started playing pickleball when I was 19, so about four years ago. I got into it because it was just the beginning of... It was COVID, and I was on vacation with my family. And the place we were had a pickleball tournament. I had no idea what it was. I've never played a racquet sport, so a unique background for me. I played football and lacrosse growing up and then lacrosse in college. So we were out there and my uncle was like, we should just play. It'll be fun. And I played with my dad and we won. And it was like a local fun thing. We were just running around hitting the ball. We were terrible. And it was so much fun. So then I came back. I was home from college for COVID, and the town I was in started a club. So my dad joined, and while I was home from college, and when I came home, I continued to go and play And it wasn't that serious for a while. And then in 2021, October, I really started playing a lot. So it's been a little over three years since I started playing seriously.

[00:03:12.420] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
And I rose through the rank, starting from your solid 3-0 all the way up. I started winning local tournaments at 4-5 and 5-0. And I met some guys my age who actually run the Pickleball Clinic, which is an online forum. And they run something in New Jersey called Montclair Pickleball. They do clinics and camps. So I started working with them. We all started together, and they were my age. So we started on some bigger tournaments just for fun, and we started doing better. And then, yes, I just kept playing and I decided at some point I was going to try to play some pro stuff. And then in the start of 2022, the end of 2022, I started playing pro tournaments. So I played two that year, got destroyed. I think I went one in six at one tournament, maybe two in six at another. So we were really on to come up. And then And starting in 2023, I really started playing pro. I played every tournament on the APP and four or five PPAs that year. And then in 2024, I played every APP and four or five PPAs. So it was a good year.

[00:04:14.020] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
And I've done pretty well. I'm ranked inside the top 10 on the APP. I've had some good PPA wins. So I'm really just trying to get better, just like all you guys, I love playing. I do it all the time. I think I played five hours of pickleball today, and it's only 4: 49. So So I love pickleball, love playing, love teaching. I make a lot of content. I just love the community and the people. So I try to be as involved as possible in as many ways as I can.

[00:04:41.370] - Tony Roig
Awesome, Richard. Richard and I, this is the first time he and I meet, but I've heard great things about him from our team, and that's our team member, Emily. Thanks for putting this together and connecting us. But in terms of your place in pickleball and what I've heard from other players and things like that, the way you carry yourself, It's great to have you as part of our community as well and to have you be a great spokesperson for the sport. We have a lot to cover on the mental side, so I'd like to just dive right into it if we can, Richard. Can you talk us through when you You told me I could ask these questions. I'm going to ask them. So you suffered a loss in 2023, is what you told me, and that's what really started your path. Let's start from there and explain to everybody, because everybody out here who's listening has had, maybe not at a big pro tournament, but they've all had a loss or a series of losses that puts them on that like, what am I doing in this thing? Let's talk us through that.

[00:05:37.200] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I don't think it's very different being a pro or an amateur when it comes to this stuff. When I started playing pickleball, it was fun. And then that's the truth. I think that's why it's so addicting. It's just so dang fun. So I was having a blast, and I started playing, and I started doing well, and I was having success. And I started attaching value to success over time. You start winning and doing And I'm winning a lot of local stuff and whatever. And then I'm starting to win some pro matches. And the guy I work with now, we call it the I'll be happy if or I'll be happy when struggle. And so I started having that. And I didn't realize it was a problem because as long as you just keep getting better, it's fine. So I win a 5-0, okay, great. Now I set a new goal. So now I'll be happy when I become a 5-5. Okay, I do that. I'll be happy when I win a pro match. Okay, do that. I'll be happy when I win a pro meta. Okay, do And suddenly, you stop having that success because there's an end.

[00:06:35.020] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
Even Ben Jones, what would his goal be? Triple crown every tournament. And if he doesn't do that, if you attach your worth to something like that, eventually it catches up to you. And I started having that in 2023. So I won my first next Gen in 2023, and I got a silver medal in 2023 over the summer. And I was on this high. I was like, Oh, I'm so great, whatever. And then I couldn't I lost some first round matches. And the rest of the summer, I'm just struggling, and I'm just not having the success that I was. And I had moved my goalpost. So now that I had won that medal, I'm expecting medals. And that's just not happening. So I'm not winning. And the truth is, even now, that doesn't happen. I've been trying at this for another two years. I'm not winning medals every tournament. There's almost nobody doing that. The truth is, there's so many talented players, and not just at pro. The 4-0 level has risen so much. 4-0s now would destroy me when I was a 4-0. Five Myvos now are way better than I was. The truth is every level is getting more competitive.

[00:07:35.120] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I think this catches up to all of us. It caught up to me. I told Tony, I just remember the exact moment. It was Chicago, 2023. I was playing with a really good player. I set these unreasonable expectations because to me, I think any expectations are unreasonable because you can't control it. I set these expectations and I did not achieve them, lost a bad match, then lost another bad match to go out. And I remember sitting down under a tree and I was teary-eye, and I just remember, I haven't been having fun. So not enjoying being here. I was like, I want to go home. I was like, maybe pick a ball for me. And I remember I called my dad, and he was like, just give Coach Bill a call. So for reference, Coach Bill is a coach I had in high school for football and lacrosse, and he was the perfect definition of a stoic. And I didn't understand it when I was in high school because I don't think high school students really, really do. But everything he would say, talk about being present, not letting the wins affect you, not letting the losses affect you, talking about how when the scoreboard turns off, the game's over.

[00:08:40.250] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
Win or lose, it doesn't matter. And we all, literally, we were like, That's just BS. That's not true. We all just want to win, win, win, win, win person in the world. That was something I took joy in. And it caught up to me. And so I'm very frustrated and angry. And I called him and he put me on to some stuff to listen to. It's this guy named Michael Singer. It's some books, a lot of stuff. And it's like an... I would call it an introduction to spirituality and stoicism would be the idea. And I didn't know that. He didn't tell me that or whatever. We just talked and he was like, if you want to improve this, here are some things to look at that will help you reprioritize. To get back to having fun. And I got hooked and I've been hooked. And since then, it's been over a year and a half. It's my life. It's more important to me than pickleball. And saying that makes me happy. And maybe it's not always true. I think sometimes in my brain, I still go, pickleball is the most important thing. But I think a lot of the time it is true because it's about my happiness, my joy, all that.

[00:09:53.670] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
So that was how I started down the path, and it's taken me a long, long way. So Awesome.

[00:10:00.460] - Tony Roig
Thanks, Richard, for sharing that. I have a couple of notes here I'm going to come back to. Actually, it's interesting because you just said something that resonated with me because I've been on my journey about four years or so now. I actually started this podcast as part of my personal journey, meaning when I first started the podcast, I basically, I was open about it. I said, I hope this podcast helps everybody who wants to listen to this, but I'm going to make it anyway because I'm making it for me and my journey, and then hopefully you come along for the ride. But But what you said is this... It's normal to... And I'm going to... Backsliding is too big of a term, but I can't think of another one right now. But basically, the old habit pops instead of because I played, and it wasn't a tournament, I just played socially yesterday. And two things happened that one was I was getting on myself unrealistically for hitting balls into the net when I haven't practiced or really played much. And it just doesn't end as a social game anyway. And then the second thing was the The score was affecting how I felt.

[00:11:01.740] - Tony Roig
When we were up big, I was relaxed. When it was tight or we were behind, then I was more tense, which is contrary to what I understand is how I should be when I'm out there. But what I realized was I didn't prepare. And that's one of the things I've been focusing on now in my podcast and stuff, this podcast is trying to recommend that players take moments to get themselves ready, because once you're in the barrel, once you're inside the barrel and things are happening, things get nutty. But anyway, so that was interesting. But let me take you up one thing.

[00:11:37.450] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I just want to part-play all that for one second. Do it. Yeah, so the coach I worked with, so he's been doing this for like 35 years. He was a college football star, and he had some struggles. And he, like you said, huge backslide. His story, someday, he's an amazing guy to talk to. But he's been on this for a long time. And that's always... He has a lot of things. He says one And one of the things is like, backsliding, like going out on the courts, like having a drink if you're an alcoholic. It's like, like you said, the first time, you're much more resistant. But every time after that, I know that to be true for me. The first time I get upset on court, I have more of a barrier. But every time after that, it's so hard. And by the time you've been upset, you've been like, why did I miss that? Why did I miss that? The next time it happens, you're off the rocker. And we call it like, it's like losing our center. So Once you are off your center, it's very hard to climb back on. So what usually ends up happening, and it still happens to me, is I said at the last tournament, I totally lost my center one day, and it took me a while.

[00:12:40.690] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
There was nothing I could do. I mean, probably there was, but there's something I did. And at some point, I took a deep breath, and I was like, Okay, it's over. I'm back. Whatever. But the thing he said is, As the journey progresses, and I know it to be true, you're a little further along than I am, and he's a lot further along. He said, The amount of times it happens decreases, and the length, you lose your center decreases. So he's like, in the beginning, and I know when I would lose a match, it was like hours, days, sometimes being frustrated about it to now very short. I mean, I would say usually like 15 minutes or less for me, maybe. If I I frustrated at all, it's much shorter because very quickly my brain's... Again, you're rewiring your brain. That's really what we're doing here. And very quickly your brain is reminding you like, hey, it's nice out. You're still in a pickleball tournament. This is a pretty good day. I mean, do you really want to just I sit around and be angry all day? I don't know. Sorry.

[00:13:33.290] - Tony Roig
No, it's interesting because I wrote a piece and I did a podcast. So I went to the... I've gone to the last two nationals. I never gone to a national before. I played the US Open because I was here in Florida But not the nationals.

[00:13:45.590] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
You can play nationals or nationals, nationals?

[00:13:48.090] - Tony Roig
The USA Pickup Ball National. So the one in Dallas in '23 and then the '24. Arizona.

[00:13:54.830] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
Yeah. So I got Tanner, the guy I mentioned, Tanner Picklebron. We got bronze in men's doubles at Nationals last year.

[00:14:01.240] - Tony Roig
Cool. That's awesome. It was a good...

[00:14:02.710] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
It was a lucky... Like I said, that's the first time I've ever played nationals. It was an amazing atmosphere. So many people.

[00:14:08.290] - Tony Roig
I thought it... Amazing.

[00:14:10.730] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I never had such a cool experience.

[00:14:13.760] - Tony Roig
I agree. Nationals, Those are big tournaments. But in '23, I'm at Nationals in Dallas, and I'm playing senior pro. One of the things that I like about tournaments is it allows me to see players who I don't get to see because they're all over the country. And so I go to the tournament and I just like, listen, I go out there, I do my best. I play senior pro, but I'm not training all the time. I don't work at the game the way you would work at the game based on your dedication to what you're trying to do. I'm fine with it. I go out there, I do my thing. I got punchers chances in these games. I do the best I can. I play as hard as I can. But for me, it's more just to go and see everybody and shake hands and hug them and all that stuff. But there was a moment there where I'm looking around. There was this area where you look around all these courts, and I'm looking up and down the courts, seeing all my friends and acquaintances playing, and they're miserable. I mean, absolutely miserable, up and down.

[00:15:07.010] - Tony Roig
It wasn't like it was the most... Not all of them, most of them. To me, it's even sillier because I'm not saying you should get down. You shouldn't. No. But this is for you, I believe it's like a career thing. It's like a thing... For them, they're all 50 over. They're all like, Why did you go to Nationals to have a bad time, to be stressed out. Go do something else. Stay at home. Do some gardening. A hundred %.

[00:15:35.840] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I've said for a while, I think this is my gimmick to sell it. Because I said the truth is, I'll try and get people on this path any way I can. The truth is, and I say all this to pros, I was like, you want to know how to be better than people the quickest way possible, change your mental game. The pro game, like you said, the pro game is the senior pro game amplified Because like you said, you have people that feel the same way plus external pressure. So they are creating internal pressure, but people are like, hey, if I don't do this, I might lose my sponsorship, whatever it is. And the truth is, it's all BS because no matter how bad you want it, you can't control if you win or lose. You can put in as much effort and have the right attitude, but I can want it. I told my friend this, and it took him a couple of weeks, and he came back to me. He was like, Yeah, I get it now. But I said, If you took 100 people and you designed the ultimate practice plan, and you guys all practice your butts off 15 hours a day.

[00:16:34.910] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I mean, you just dedicate your life to it. Only one of you will be the best, and it probably won't be you. That's the truth. The idea that everyone's just like, Just outwork them, I actually think that's... Put the work in 100%, you have to. That's a requirement. But you want to know the biggest way to get ahead, it's this stuff. And to me, that was how I got involved in this. I thought it was a gimmicky, Hey, it'll help me get better, so I'll take a couple of steps down the path. I'm never going to really believe it. I want to win. I'm competitive. That's what I care about. But what happened is over time, you realize, wow, there are much bigger things. So it's funny. That was a big perspective You're talking about perspective. A big perspective shift for me going from when I started on this, it was just to get better at pickleball. Now, being better at pickleball is a byproduct. It's not the goal. I said, pickleball to me now has become a tool where it's so emotionally charged all the time that I just get to practice the mental stuff more than everyone else does.

[00:17:35.050] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I talk to my parents about this. They have some stuff that they're working and stuff, so they have some stuff that they get angry or upset about. But it's a couple of times a week, maybe, maybe once a week, maybe less. I have it a couple of times a day. I go out to drill, things are not going to go the way I plan. They never do. Every day, I get to work on this. And I said, that's honestly the reason why I don't think I can go back to trying to do a 9: 00 to 5: 00 or something because I get to get pushed and grow every every day. That's what pickleball brings me more than anything. And obviously, I'm pursuing the best I can be. I said, that's my goal this year, to become the best Richard I can. I'm not trying to beat Ben Jones. Maybe I can. I'd be happy to. I'd love to. That'd be awesome. But if that's in the cards for me, that's in the cards for me. If it's not, it's not. I know I can become a better version of myself on the court, one, mentally, two, physically, and three, emotionally.

[00:18:24.680] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
So that's what I'm working for. But that is a huge thing I notice all the time. The mental game across the board is weak, it's angry. And it may not be... And weak doesn't necessarily mean just tense. It can be like you said, I consider a weak mental game. I mean, if you're walking off the court after a loss, playing in beautiful California, and you're just miserable because you lost, for the rest of the trip, that's weak to me. Because I don't know. I just remember talking to my mom about this a long time ago. And when I was younger, I remember we talked and she had told me, Oh, I just want to get through the week. And I remember that for a while. And at some point, I talked to her recently about it and I was like, it is funny, though, because you're trying to skip 75 % of your life to get to the 25 % that you're putting expectations on. You're expecting this to suck and this to be amazing. Twofold. One, this will never live up to your expectations. Two, You're fast forwarding through your life. So for me now, I don't look forward to the tournaments anymore.

[00:19:20.870] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I do. I'm excited to go to them, but I'm working on being excited every day. I got to play today. It's an awesome day. Got to talk to somebody and help my mental the game. And what you said, the one other thing I wanted to key on was the thing Coach Bill told me, which I now believe 100 % is the best way to work on this is to talk to people about it. You can sit in your inner mind all day, but when you talk to other people and they give you their perspective and their stories, and that helps. I mean, that's helped me so much. I still talk to him all the time. I call him at the last tournament, not even about after the loss, whatever. I just called him and we just chatted, and he gave me some new perspective. I gave him some new stuff. And I think the most beautiful thing about this is it It's probably been given to you for free. It was given to me for free. So I'm just trying to give it away, as many people as I can. I get to be around a lot of the young players here.

[00:20:08.750] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
So I talk to them about it. Anyone that asks, I'm happy to talk to about it. And if I can help them, great. That'd be awesome. If I could help more people be happy and content and enjoy what they're doing, happy to do it.

[00:20:19.260] - Tony Roig
So it's fun. And I would say this. I agree with you that I think it's difficult for a high schooler to pick up on some of the more nuanced pieces of this. But I grew up in tennis, right? And I didn't play high school tennis, but when I was a young boy, I played competitive tennis. We traveled. I played tournaments, all that stuff. What I realized was now, what I realized now is, I spent hours on the court fine-tuning forehand serve, volleys, whatever. No time was spent on mental. And what you said is 100% true. I don't know if you probably know the Yogi Berra quote, but the Yogi Berra quote was, Base is 90% mental and 50 %. The rest, the other 50 % is whatever. And so it's true. I'll tell you a quick side thing. I'm a big proponent of... Not proponent, that's not... I'm a student of the game. One area where I think pros are pretty bad at, I don't mean you, right? I just mean in general, time out. Time out usage is awful for most pros. Like waiting until it's 10: 03 When I'm calling a time out, it's like- I've talked to people.

[00:21:33.160] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
It's like admitting your fail. I guess.

[00:21:35.530] - Tony Roig
It's weird.

[00:21:37.280] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
Analee Waters is the best timeout call in the game. And then she plays with Ben, who hates calling timeouts.

[00:21:46.000] - Tony Roig
Right, but that's the point. But this is the thing, right? I'll tell you where I'm at with it. Because I used to be like, Why did Ben and Colin don't call? It was crazy to me, right? Why don't they call timeouts? But you know what I realized? Ben is always in a timeout, literally. He is so chill between one and the next rally. He's basically like an auto time out. He has, I think, the calmest between the alleys.

[00:22:10.010] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I think he also has a unique tool. He said this a while ago. I remember it was probably a year or two ago, which I actually think... So I guess for him, it's a little bit of an exception. But he said, he and Colin, especially, game plan better than most people. So he's like, I also, even if I'm a little frustrated, he goes, I don't really want to give my opponents more time to game plan. He goes, We know what we're going to do. They probably don't know as well. So to give them more time to figure out a strategy and stuff may not make sense. But again, across the board, something I see all the time, especially when now a lot of coaches players are helping other players. We're on the sideline watching our friend lose two, three points in a row and we're like this. It's like, one, one.

[00:22:49.470] - Tony Roig
It's always one more. There's like five and you're like, what?

[00:22:52.660] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
They win it. They're like, See, I didn't need it. I'm like, that's not really the point. It wasn't about it. It's about the situation. And people have asked me that, what's It's the best time to call a time out. I said it's fluid. It's this, not the score.

[00:23:07.240] - Tony Roig
I've called timeouts, Richard. I've called timeouts at one-one because me and my partner... Well, me and my partner had a disagreement and he was pissed at me about something. I'll call time out. We're not going to play like that, right? So we just come off the court, we work it out. I've called timeouts at 3: 00, 4: 00 when I see my partner getting in her head about missing a dink and she's talking to herself. And in case you're listening and you want how to do timeouts, I recommend doing timeouts for yourself. Don't be like, I call the time out, Richard, because I saw you were a mess. I'm going to call a timeout. I call a timeout, I'm like, I just got something in my eye. I need some water. I don't know. I'm trying to get off the score because this is a disaster waiting to happen. But anyway, but going back to Ben, I think, again, I've come around on Ben not calling time out because I just think he's in a constant state. But let me tee this up for a minute. You're good on time, Richard. We're going a little bit longer than I had said to you, but if you have a couple more minutes.

[00:23:58.880] - Tony Roig
I'm good. Yeah, I'm That's awesome. If you're listening to this podcast, I highly recommend you stick around. I know we're going a little longer than normal, but I didn't realize we're going to have a treasure trove of cool information to chat about here. You mentioned expectations, and I think that's an area that is super... It creeps up on you because I think all players are like this. You start playing, you got no expectations, you just go out there, you have fun, and it's unbridled. Then maybe you win a couple... You're not even playing tournaments. You start winning some games. And you're like, so now players are looking at you like you're one of them mid-level or better players in that court. And then all of a sudden it becomes like, Shit, I can't lose this. I can't lose this match because it's going to be embarrassing for me because now I expect to win. And I really think that robs us from our ability to enjoy the moment. So let me ask you this, because I agree with you, and this is something that we hit in all our coachings is you can't control wins.

[00:24:56.230] - Tony Roig
And so I think players misunderstand that It's easy to mistake, you can't go out and win, you can still compete. You can still go out there and perform your best. So maybe talk us about that a little bit, maybe replacing expectations or wins, however you like to think about it, but with the idea of what you mentioned, which is doing the best that you're able to that day or whatever.

[00:25:21.750] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
Yeah. So it's twofold. So one, for me, stoicism has brought this to light for me. The truth is, stoic practice But pretty much the whole thing is about. It's one about being present in the moment, which is great. It's also about, objectively, there are things you control and things you can't. And the truth is, almost nothing is in our control. And I think that's something that people just don't realize. And I think because of that, people view... One thing is stoicism as this bad rep of being unemotional. People say, stoics or people that aren't emotional. The same way that when I try to I have people this, what we've talked about with the pickleball thing, people will tell me, No, I just care too much. And I'm like, No, you're wrong. You care about the wrong thing. Because the truth is, you can say you want it more than me, but it won't make you play better because you can't control how good you play. In my opinion, this has been my motto recently, attitude and effort. That's it. I go on a pickleball court, that's it. You game plan the best you can, 100 % before.

[00:26:28.770] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
You give everything you all the effort that you have, mentally to think about the game plan and to physically to execute, and you're positive with yourself. That's obviously a whole other thing, but I'm huge on self-positivity. I mean, it's the biggest thing. And I came from team sports, so seeing the negativity towards people's selves is unbelievable to me in pickleball. And I've heard this is how it is in tennis. I never played. But the self-negativity, I mean, I say this, right? A great example, right? Would you purposely hit a shot you know isn't as good. And everyone would say, no. And I'm like, but you will not purposely, but knowingly be mean to yourself and possibly your partner, knowing that it's not going to help you or them play better. And then you're going to tell me that you want it more. I'm like, Well, no, you're working against yourself. To me, I'm maximizing what I can control. If I can let go of all the things I can, expectations, the internal and external pressure It doesn't exist. I mean, it's created by you. Other people say you should win. Does that mean you should win?

[00:27:35.280] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
No. You say, Oh, I'm better than this person. I should win. No. Again, you can't... A couple of things. One, you should have played enough pickleball even once you played a couple of matches, to know that it's a fickle sport. You don't win all the time. You're not going to win every match that you're, quote, quote, better than somebody. It's just not how it works. So there's no point putting expectations like that on yourself. I think And don't forget, Richard, it's hard to interrupt you, but don't forget, you're also going to win some that you probably shouldn't want.

[00:28:04.660] - Tony Roig
Absolutely. Right. So that's the thing. That's where they're technically the better player and you still win. So yeah.

[00:28:09.160] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
Yeah. You're selling out. Like I said, it's both... I mean, with all this stuff, the thing we're And so it's both ways. When I say not getting too low after a loss, it's the exact same thing when you get too high. There's a whole thing, as I talked to someone recently about what's called the Olympic Depression, which is after Olympians went on a medal, they go into this huge state of this sadness after because they thought it was going to have some meaning. Olympians, a lot of times, have been doing their sports since they were three or four. And the Olympic medal was everything. And yet they achieve it, and it's nothing. It's over. As soon as you get it, it's over. The joy was the process. And I think that's what I've slowly been learning. And you hear it. I mean, I've heard that since I was three years old, and I never believed it until recently. And now I believe it to be true. Like, pickleball is going to end at some point, and it's really not going to matter how many masters I want because it's done. If I go on to be the greatest pickleball player in history, I'm going to be done and it's going to be over.

[00:29:04.690] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I would rather be a worst pickleball player who enjoys every moment I play from now until the end, then be miserable and win all the time. Because the truth is, When you win, winning doesn't make you happy. And if you haven't realized that yet, you will. It doesn't. It doesn't bring you... Like I said, you just keep moving the goalpost. You keep pushing it down the road. It's that if I win, oh, okay, yeah, no, that medal wasn't good. But if I get a gold medal, That's it. That's all I need. I'll be so happy. You'll win the gold medal, and then you'll say, Now I want more gold medals, and more, and more, and more. And of course, you want to pursue... To me, you pursue growth. To me, if I was Ben, and I'm winning, let's say, even Ben from two years ago, I'm winning every single medal. And again, it's the same thing that way. For him, I think there was a little bit of lack of interest, possibly. But I think if you're focused on yourself, it's not about winning the gold, it's about improving yourself, which is why I think he's becoming better now than he ever has been before because now he has this drive back.

[00:30:04.790] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
But I don't think... Again, there's a big thing, right? Agusti's talked about, he wrote a famous book on it, about attaching value to results. And expectations and results go hand in hand to me. They're both out of your control. And I am completely still in this. And I tell people that my big goal in 2025 is stop lying to myself. Because I said, when I started down this path, I very quickly fell into this hole of I wanted to see progress. So when people ask me about it, I would tell them I'm making progress. I'd be like, yeah, I don't feel that way on the court anymore. Or like, No, I'm so good at this now. And I realized at some point I was like, no, I'm not. I'm still struggling with the same stuff. And now I still struggle with the same stuff. At the last tournament, I lost It's a match, and I want... I really, I was like, Oh. And it took me a while to just, it's over. I feel a lot better now, and I'm going to work next time to not feel that way. Will it happen again? 100 %.

[00:30:56.740] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
And I think the other thing I've really learned, this is my big message to everyone is always forgive yourself. I mean, your partners, too. That should be a no-brainer, though, be good partners. But yourself, too. I said this all the time. I miss a shot, I forgive myself, what can I do about it? I lose a match, forgive myself, what can I do better? We have this grief state, and I know it. It's this hole where you want to be angry at yourself. You want to punish your sofa how you played or how you did. And it doesn't do anything for you. And it makes you so unhappy. It may It made me so sad. It made me so unhappy with who I was and who I was as a player to the point where I was literally like... I remember the last time I felt this way, New York last year, so almost a year ago, I just remember calling my dad and I was like, I just don't think I'm a pickleball player. I just don't think I'm cut out for it. And At this point, I've won multiple pro-metals. I'm making money playing pickleball, living what I would have said was a dream.

[00:31:52.540] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
And I'm like, I just don't think I'm cut out for this. I'm not having fun. So another thing I heard, I know, I'm just jumping from place to place. It's all It was, you've already achieved what you said would make you happy. And I remember I saw that in New York, and I just remember, why am I like this? I'm like, if you had told me I'm playing pickleball for a living, for over... Now, a year and a half I've been doing this. I'm making money. I'm living in Florida. This would be a dream. I wouldn't have given anything. If you had told me, you lost that match last week, I would have been like, Okay, whatever. But now I'm like, Oh, my God, I lost that match. Maybe I should quit. Maybe I just don't have it anymore. People have gotten too good. I can't handle that. And the truth is, if that is the case, okay. But until that day where I'm like, Hey, I'm not making money. I can't do this as a career. I'm just going to do my best to forgive myself, enjoy playing pickleball and just have a blast.

[00:32:47.570] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
It's so much fun. And I think if you can let go of those expectations, you really realize you have more fun and a little cheat-cheat, you'll play a lot better. Like everyone says, when you play, everyone says it to me, at the pro level, right? You come in and you play the higher seeds and you play really well against them. And two things. One, when they lose, they're never upset. First time they play, and nobody's upset when they lose to Ben and Ana Lee. The top players All the players who think they can beat them are, but all the qualifiers are like, they lose four and five. They're like, oh, I had some great points. That was awesome. If they lose to me four and five, they're like, oh, my God, I'm terrible, whatever. But the point is, it's the same result. Why would you treat it differently? Because you've gone in with different expectations. So I think, one, you limit yourself. It's a whole thing about, you talked about it with the big three, Federer, Nadal, and Djokovitch. Especially Federer and Nadal, everyone said in the 2000s, nobody could beat them. And Djokovitch came in and was like, I'm going to beat them.

[00:33:45.530] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
So he didn't cap himself. I feel like in pickleball, we're at this stage. Ben and Annali are the perfect example. People still are capping themselves against those players. And the truth is, you may not be ready to beat them, but you're definitely not ready to beat them if you're telling yourself pre-match, these guys are too good. If in your head you're saying that, you're capping yourself. And the same thing the other way, right? You go in, you have a buy in a tournament, you're a pro or an amateur, whatever, and you're like, oh, can't lose this match. We can't lose this one. These guys aren't that good. I know them. You're way more likely to lose that match than you would be if you just played it.

[00:34:18.140] - Tony Roig
And I will say, going back to what you said, and I'll share with you the way that I've come up with framing it for myself and for some players I've worked with is, I think to solve that right is going back to the way you framed it originally, which is just, I think you said attitude and effort, was that? Effort, yeah. So basically, as long as you bring that to the table, it doesn't matter who's across the net. Because now who's across the net might affect your game plan, your strategy. That's one thing. But how you come into the game and how you carry yourself during the game, both mechanically and mentally, shouldn't change. Whether you're playing the 128 seed or the number two seed, it should be the It's the same. And your percentages are different, but so what? You're still going to do the thing that you're going to do. And the phrase that I've... The way that I'm framing it these days is, I think it's from memory, but it came from a little bit of stoicism in my thinking anyway. My my understanding of it. It's do your best to be your best or play your best.

[00:35:20.790] - Tony Roig
But it has two components, right? Because the thing that players, I think, sometimes miss is the first part is subjective, meaning sometimes Sometimes Richard is not going to be at 100 % because something's going on in his family or he didn't sleep well a couple of nights, whatever it is. You're doing your best, but you have to- I was sick at the last 20 minutes.

[00:35:40.020] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I threw it in before and I was not 100 %. Yeah.

[00:35:43.190] - Tony Roig
Right. And you have to deal with that. I mean, that's Sometimes it's just going to be your brain just isn't clicking. You're a millisecond late on the outball read or the counter or whatever you're doing. That's one area. Then the other area is to play my best or to do it. That, to me, is the more objective So that's like you're saying, you're working on your game every day, you're drilling. So now I can do these things to help me improve my baseline. But even my baseline is going to have some adjustment to it based on how I'm doing that day as a human being. And so that's the way I think about it these days.

[00:36:17.680] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I love that.

[00:36:19.620] - Tony Roig
Well, you're welcome to use it. Richard, let me ask you a question. I'm going to wrap just not because the conversation, we could speak for four hours. I I'd love to. But I know that we've always made this podcast roughly around this time. And I'm going to suggest I'd love to do a follow-up podcast with you. I'd love to.

[00:36:39.670] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
Anytime.

[00:36:41.030] - Tony Roig
But let me ask you, we're big fans of recommending a resource. We suggest players listen to this podcast because we think it's a helpful way to get into this and get a different way of thinking about it. We recommend certain books. Is there a book that jumps out to you? You can do the Marcus Horeli's Meditations, but that one's pretty deep, pretty heavy. I got two. So is there something that you would recommend to a player who's like, You know what, stoicism sounds interesting. I've heard about it. Maybe I've seen a video on it. It's a good entry-level book.

[00:37:11.280] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
Obviously, the people listening to this are in the podcast. So I have a podcast that I'm very into, which breaks down a lot of that mumbo jumbo into very digestible pieces. It's called Stoicism on Fire. It's on every major podcast source. It's great. Super easy. The episodes are all under 30 minutes. Guy talks about it. He also gives you a lot of resources if you're more interested in stoicism. And then there's a lot of modern stoicism, which, again, everyone's different. I'm not recommending anything. For me, I focus more on ancient stoicism, only because modern stoicism removes what's called the universal perspective, pretty much removing any religion idea, which I think, and he talks about it in Stoicism on Fire, it's hard to have that perspective if you think you may just be getting effed over. But if you have that larger universal perspective, you're never really getting ebbed over. There's some plan. So there's two different views. I definitely like this one a lot more. And then a book that a little stoic, not really stoic, so if you're not as into that, it's this guy, Michael Singer, I got into. He's just a dude.

[00:38:15.670] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I don't know how else to explain him. He's just a dude who wants you to be happy, talks about... He actually has a... I forget what it's called. It's like a school in Florida. Not really a school. It's like a... He goes and talks to people. I don't know, like a seminar place. It's in Gainesville, I think, up north. But It's called The Untethered Soul. It's a New York Times best seller. Yeah, it's like an all time. Millions of copies sold. Super popular. It's like $8. It's super short. They have digestible chapters. It talks about the voice in your head. It talks about how your brain works. It just And the cool thing about the Michael Singer book is what it talks about, you will go and see. So it'll talk about ways to observe yourself thinking, and you'll do it, and you'll go, Oh, wow. Yeah, I am doing that. So it's very easy. And that's how I got into all this. I So very quickly, I thought I was going to be like, no, this doesn't apply to me. But very quickly, I was like, no, this is exactly how my brain is working.

[00:39:07.100] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
And it may not be, like I said, I can only speak for me. And I guess Michael, because that's what he wrote the book on. But for me, it was very similar to how my brain thinks about stuff and the struggles and frustrations I have. So that helped me a lot. And there's a follow-up book. It all ties together. So all of that, those are great resources. I love it.

[00:39:25.900] - Tony Roig
Yeah, those are really good. Our recommendation to folks is, you and I, before we got on, we were talking about another... My mentor in this has been Coach Peter Scales, and I've talked to you already about getting you a copy of that book. But what we recommend is you can't go wrong. You read it, and maybe this one doesn't really land for you, but you try this one over here and you're like, this one really lands. We talked about it. You mentioned it earlier, and I'd like to close with this concept. Let's hit this one again if we can for a second, which is, pickleball is awesome. It's great to be able to go out there and just hit the ball around, and that's great. And I'll tell you the way we frame it, and then we can just talk about it for a second. And you've already mentioned this, but we frame it as, use pickleball as a canvas, as a canvas for yourself and your development as a human being. That's physical, social, emotional, mental, all of that stuff. And then what you gain in this area on the pick-up-ball court will help you play better pick-up-ball, like you said, but also will help you when you're Maybe you're going to get pissed off at something that happened in a family event or whatever.

[00:40:33.800] - Tony Roig
All these things help you. You're going to feel better with your body because your body's in better shape. It's just a bigger way of looking. I think reading these resources or listening to the podcast, you mentioned Stolicism on Fire, and we'll put all these links in the show notes for you if you're listening to this. But it's really just a way of growing as a human being. And it sounds like you're on an awesome journey for yourself inside of pickleball.

[00:41:00.110] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
Yeah, it's fun. Finally, I think we said this before the recording, so I just want to just touch on this. I got into this to use everything else I was using off the pickleball court to help me play pickleball. And what I've learned is that now, pickleball has become a place where I get to practice all these other tools that I can bring into my life. Again, pickleball is a part of my life. It's not who I am. It never will be. I got engaged. I'm excited to start a I love my family. I have great friends. I love pickleball. It's all who I am. So to me, I think the coolest part about pickleball, and this is a thinker for people, is a lot of times in your life, you're not Everyone's in different places, but you're not pushed, I think. Maybe you have some work deadlines or whatever, but if you're working a normal job, a lot of times you're just doing what you have to do. And I said, Pimbleball is special because you will be I'm just talking mentally here, physically, obviously, but everyone gets that. You get in what you put out.

[00:42:04.740] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
Put in 100 % effort, play for five hours, you're going to be tired and sore, help your muscle lose weight, all that stuff. But mentally, you will be pushed every time you play. I talk to my dad, he's like, My dad was upset. My dad plays 375, 4-0, pickleball. And he's like, I was angry that I was losing. My mom's like, My sister and I... She's a twin. She's like, Sissy and I did not play well today. It was not fun. And she's like, I was working on. So to me, every time I go out on court, I know I'm going I'm going to be pushed and put in a place close to where I'm or into that uncomfortable shots aren't going my way. Not everything's working perfectly. Once in a while, everything goes great. Very rarely, though. Almost always, it's that growth mindset. So I went from doing all the stoicism, life, work, meditation I work on, that's a huge tool that stoicism and Michael Singer both talk about just being with your thoughts. But I did all that just to be calm around the court. Now I use all of that, like those tools working on the court so that I can bring that into the rest of my life.

[00:43:02.020] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
And I can speak for myself. I was very close to my grandfather, and he died two months ago. And if this was a year or two ago, I think I would have been just... I don't know. I don't know how I would have handled it. I'm fortunate enough, I've really never lost anybody, none of my close family for most of my life. And so losing him was really hard. And when I was in India when it happened, and I was okay. And obviously, but again, the stuff we talk about. And I said, there was no truer application for me than being able to say, I really am just happy, blessed, honestly, to be able to have all the memories and have got to be present with him for all the time I did. And I had him until I was in my 20s. He was 95. So it's not like he was a young. But even if I only got to spend the year with him, I can't go and get more time with him. So there's no point lamenting over that to me. I don't know. And like I said, I don't think I would have thought that when I started this journey.

[00:44:02.980] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
But now I really do think that. And I have some sadness when I think that I'm not going to be able to see him again, of course. But again, it's more like joy thinking about who he was and who he was to me and all the time I got spend together. And looking at it now, I mean, I would like to be like that all the time. I mean, there's no reason that I ever want to be sad. If I am sad, that's okay. I'm not going to punish myself for that or anything. But I don't ever want to be angry and sad and make my day and other people's day worse. If I can, I want to be a happy person who enjoys living. And if that's for one more year or 50 or 60 or 70 more years, great. I'll enjoy as many days as I have left. I think that's the attitude I want to bring to the rest of my life. And that's what I talk about on my channels. It's what I love talking about with you. I'd love to do this again. I work with some other podcasts. I'm trying to get as involved as possible and help as many people and just open up this conversation.

[00:44:52.740] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
I feel like Pickleball has given us an interesting platform where I think in the West, more than the East, not West Coast, West side of the world, this is something that just isn't talked about. Recently, in the last 10 years, though, I feel like people are focusing more on mental health and stuff. My fiance was a psychology major. She was huge into it. I literally still remember in high school, in the college, I literally was like, I just think it's mambo jumbo. I was like, I don't think I really... I was like, I just think just toughen up a little bit. And that's just how I thought about sports and life, just toughen up. And now I think it's a practice the same way. Why do we... We have this disease, where we think that... I mean, I don't think I could go out and shoot Steph Curry if I don't practice, but yet I think I can just change something mentally without any practice. We go just like, Stop. Just stop being sad. Don't work on it, just do it. Where else in life do we just pick something up and do it? Nowhere.

[00:45:49.840] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
But yet we think with our mental game, we're frustrated that we continue to fail. But I know I shouldn't be frustrated if I continue to fail at my third shot drop, I'm going to work on it and keep getting better. Same thing mentally, right? And you will see progress. I mean, I saw progress, fulfilled a ton of progress. Like I said, he's an unbelievable person, just an amazing person who always amazed me at how he carried himself, and I never understood how he was able to carry himself like that. And I still don't carry myself anywhere like he does. But I'm able to see how he's able to understand the situations presented to him and really be objective about the world around them because he really has that amazing perspective.

[00:46:28.410] - Tony Roig
You're You're in your year two of his 35-year practice, so you're getting your lips in now. That's what he says.

[00:46:37.450] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
He's like, you're in your infancy still.

[00:46:39.290] - Tony Roig
You're a young Padawan student of mental parts. But the interesting is, and I'm going to close on this. I think the last message there, the idea that the benefit you'll gain from your mental work, just reflecting on a few things at a time, just a little bit of time, continuing to apply it, both to your pickle ball and then using that as your reps, so you can have a fuller life and helping you deal with things like your grandpa. Obviously, sorry to hear about your grandfather, but congratulations on your engagement. So Richard, listen, I love this conversation. I love the journey you're on. I applaud you for your, A, for yourself. That's awesome in and of itself. But B, more so for your willingness to spread it with others, to take the stuff that's been shared with by your coach, Bill, by Michael, by the other resources that you've come across and consumed. Now you're sharing it, paying it forward, so to speak. So I really appreciate you doing that. Oh, one more thing. I know that some players listening to this are going to want to know more about Richard and what you're doing with your content.

[00:47:49.320] - Tony Roig
You and I spoke beforehand. I want to let everybody know Richard has some YouTube content, Insta following stuff. If you're into that stuff, we'll put it down in the in the show notes. And so definitely, if you want to follow this, find young player and young man and thinker of the game and the mental side, I recommend you do that. Richard, it was a pleasure to have you on the Pickup Out There Every podcast.

[00:48:13.130] - Richard Livornese, Jr.
Absolutely a pleasure. I just wanted to say Yeah, my content is a lot the same way we talk about the mental side. I dig into a lot of the physical stuff. I do a lot of tip videos, and I do all that stuff. So if you're interested in any of that, I'd love to connect with you on Insta or YouTube as well.

[00:48:28.690] - Tony Roig
100 %. Thank you a lot, I really appreciate it. I told you guys, that was a fantastic interview with Richard. Just interesting insights, different way of approaching things with stoicism. I actually started listening to the podcast, Stoicism on Fire, and it It's just been really interesting so far. I'm on episode three, I believe is the number I'm on, starting from the beginning, but really interesting stuff, and I'm looking forward to going into it, learning more about stoicism and continuing to grow my mental journey as well. As always, if you have a moment to rate and review the podcast, please do so and share it with your friends. This podcast is something that helps a lot of pickleball players, and the more who know about it, the more can benefit from its content. Be well, and I'll see you during the next regular episode of pickleball Therapy. Be well.